How To Build Safe, Quality Backlinks That Get Results According To Expert Link Builder Jason Malone
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Today's guest on the Niche Pursuits podcast is Jason Malone from the popular link-building agency 'We Outreach.' Jason first got started with digital marketing on the Warrior Forum back in 2010, where he began to specialize in SEO.
Today, his agency is building around 500 links each month to clients in various niches. He joins Jared today to mainly talk about link-building, and boy, do they go deep!
The interview contains expert tips, advice, and reliable information on all things link building.
The conversation starts with Jared asking Jason how website owners can evaluate the difference between good and bad links. The answer involves a solid framework that Jason outlines in-depth. Moreover, the framework goes into what makes a link good and advises which ones are best to ignore.
In addition, Jason highlights how to identify poor links from link farms or PBNs. This advice is helpful for anyone who wants quality website links to keep you out of trouble with Google.
As the chat evolves, the topic moves on to the process of actually building links. Jason walks you through this step-by-step, and if you've been looking for advice on making links at scale, this is a must-listen.
Again, no stone is left unturned, and although it can seem slightly complicated, paying close attention is important because the benefits of getting this right can be huge.
The interview closes with tips about niche selection. Jason has seen and worked with many websites in various niches, so he knows what topics are doing well. You also get advice on how to evaluate a niche topic yourself, what to avoid, and more.
- Is link building a numbers game?
- The different types of sites they make links for
- The types of links they build
- Which links are the most successful
- The factors of link quality
- Link relevancy
- How to find suitable sites for links
- Is a website traffic numbers a vital aspect when receiving a backlink
- Risk tolerance
- Prospect lists
- The three groups of links
- Advice for new websites building links
- Email outreach tips
- Tricks and tips for finding email addresses of website owners
- Getting the balance right between quality and quantity
- The SEO tool they use for finding good link opportunities
- Three-way link exchanges
To say this interview covers a lot is an understatement. At the end of the interview, Jason felt like having a sleep, mainly due to the number of topics covered, so be sure to take notes.
As always, enjoy the episode.
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Watch the interview:
read the transcription:
Jared: Welcome back to the Niche Pursuits podcast. My name is Jared Bauman. Today we are joined by Jason Malone with We Outreach, a link building agency. Jason Welcome.
Jason: Thanks Jared. Thanks for having me.
Jared: Oh, it's always a good day when we're talking link building, and it's been a while since we've just had an entire podcast on link building.
I can just see all the listeners salivating to hear all the things that, that we're gonna talk through and you're gonna be sharing. I'm so excited. How about you bring us up to speed on your background, um, kind of your history in, in, in the website world and how you got into link.
Jason: Sure. Yeah, so I think it started back in like 2010 or something like that.
I found, uh, the warrior form and I was kind of looking for, I, I was still in university I guess at the time, and kind of looking for something that was an alternative to like getting my degree and then getting like some sort of nine to five job. And so the warrior form, I guess a lot of your listeners will be familiar with that.
Like, uh, an old school digital marketing, affiliate marketing forum and found like, yeah, found all that really interesting. Was highly skeptical at first, but like after going through it sort of realized there is actually, there is actually something here. Um, and the first thing I get into back then was, was seo.
And like I remember having some small affiliate sites and like, uh, promoting stuff on Amazon and doing okay. I, I think I had a small service as well, like making like really basic, like frankly pretty shitty, uh, affiliate sites for, for other people. I mean by today's standards. I say that back then. Yeah, they were like pretty, Okay.
Pretty average by, by the standards back then. So things have changed a bit since, uh, since then in the last 10 years. But, um, yeah, don't feel bad. We
Jared: were all making bad sites back then, .
Jason: Yeah, I know. And the same with, uh, with the way we build links back then as well is like, totally, totally different than today.
And then, yeah, from there, I, I did some other things. I got into like affiliate marketing with Facebook traffic for a while. Facebook also, like, totally different back then. I guess this was around 2012. I got into that and uh, ended up working for a guy who was already like really successful and proficient with, uh, with affiliate marketing on, on Facebook and had an arrangement where, uh, I was on like a, a profit share deal.
So any campaigns I was running, I, I was getting a share of the profits and we did. We did really well with that for, for a few years. And then some other other things were paid traffic like arbitrage with display ads and, and stuff like that. Uh, and eventually found, so all that sort of wrapped up. And then around 2016, I found the Authority Hacker guys and, uh, it was around the same time that all of this other stuff with the, the Facebook affiliate marketing ended and, uh, got back into SEO through the, the authority hacker guys like affiliate marketing and and authority sites kind of based on their, on their model.
And started some of my own sites and, and did okay from this. And I was in the, and still am in the authority hacker, like paid community. And that's where we outreached the link building service came from because I realized, I was a bit like shit at like putting content together for my website and didn't really enjoy it, but I was for some reason quite good at Link building.
I think something about the process just clicked at me and I could see how I could just put all these different pieces of link building together and it's just like a numbers game. And most people were the opposite of that. They really liked making content and like working on their sites, but for some reason struggled with like, uh, link building and, and outreach because one, I guess it's difficult, but two, you're kind of putting yourself out there and you gotta like, interact with the real world rather than, uh, like real people, rather than just like interacting with, with your website.
And it's, it's a different type of thing. And. Uh, at some point I got some of my buddies in there and, and like two or three guys, I, I, I remember there was discussions in the group about them wanting to find a way to outsource link building, and I, I kind of just started talking to them privately and said, You know, you give me a thousand dollars, I'll give you 10 links a month.
Like, let's see how this goes. And that's where we outreach and sort of my complete dedication to link building started from, uh, about like four and a half years now. And, yeah. That those years later, like still focused on nothing else. I don't own or operate my own sites or anything anymore. It's like, it's all just, uh, link building these days.
And, uh, I think running an agency is, is plenty challenging enough without spreading my focus to, uh, to, uh, websites, uh, again, uh, although I'm always tempted to, to get back into it. But yeah, that kind of brings us up to today just, uh, running the agency, running the team, and yeah, building links for like tons and tons of different clients.
So I think you've probably
Jared: hit the nail in the head in that. And I don't wanna speak for everyone, but I, my sentiments are the same as yours. Like, it just seems like, hey, link building is one of the things that everyone loves to talk about, but no one likes to actually do, people do it, but there are people who, um, who, who just believe so strongly in the need for it, that they just muscle through it.
Uh, it's so rare to find someone who enjoys link building, and perhaps that's why some people don't bother doing it. What do you think is, you kind of touched on it a bit about the processes, but what about link building? What about the processes makes it so exciting for you or perhaps makes it something that you're successful
I think I could just see that it was a numbers game from, from the very start, and I didn't find it daunting that it was like, Okay, I need to contact like 200 people just to get like one or two, or two links or, or something like that. I, I could see, okay, I start with the 200 people and then I like put them into this tool, like find the email addresses, like clean the data in this way, like then outreaching this way.
And I really think of it like a machine and there's like all these little different places where you can tweak the machine to like, make it more effective so that your inputs at the start, your prospects go through all these different stages and then, uh, end up like as links, uh, at, at the, at the other side.
And, uh, there's so many different ways to get an advantage for yourself with all these different things. Like just a few random examples, like off the top of my head, like many people struggle to get their emails delivered to, to the inbox every time. Like a lot of people, their emails go to the spam or like promotions folder, things like this.
If you can get really, really good at deliverability, That's one part of your, uh, one section of your machine where you're like, better than everyone else. And, and if you can do this in, in all the different sections, uh, have like good writers that come up with engaging templates that are better, get better responses than everyone else's templates, Like, stand out more in the inbox.
That's another chance for you to stand out better prospecting, like finding better contacts or more email addresses than everyone else. Like that's another way to stand out. And yeah, I, I think there was just something about the, the, the logic of thinking about it like a machine that, that appealed to me, uh, somehow.
And it, it just, whatever way my brain works like this just fit with it a lot, a lot better than thinking about content. And you can think about content from a logical and structured way too, but there's definitely also like this, uh, creative, uh, element to like creating like really, really good content.
And that just didn't click with me somehow, just not as much, Not to the same extent that that link building did. No,
Jared: it makes sense. It makes sense. I, I mean, your approach to the link building is probably so, uh, synonymous with why you're successful. Like, you're just, you break it down into such a, a numbers game and you're not afraid of, of the numbers behind it, and then just constantly optimizing each of the pro the processes.
Where is, um, I mean you're with, uh, with WE Outreach, where are you guys now? Like, give us some numbers in terms of, uh, maybe how many back links a month you're building, or, you know, in terms of the number of clients you work with. Just to give us some idea of the scope of links you guys handle on a, on a monthly.
Jason: Yeah. Uh, probably the easiest is, is to say we build between like 400 and 500 links per month. So that's, that's the sort of level we're at now, spread across. Uh, some clients like, uh, you know, do like 30 or 40 links a month. Others just wanna do like five or 10 links a month. So it's, it kind of, yeah, it's a, it's a big range of like different types of, different types of websites, different types of, of, uh, projects.
Um, some are, are, yeah, just different sizes basically, and, and different sizes and different types of companies. So we have like, affiliate sites and, and niche sites. Uh, and then on the, on the other end we have like software companies and, and different types of, uh, like bigger businesses, uh, like this, that have kind of, uh, a different need, uh, in, in their link building.
So, yeah. Well that's, that's a lot of links ,
Jared: that's a lot of links to both per month. I guess it's a numbers game, but even at that number it feels such a, so daunting. Uh, alright, well, hey, let's, let's take it from the top here. Uh, it's 2022. What, um, what types of links are you guys building? Which ones or what types of links are you seeing be successful?
Give us a little bit of an overview about, you know, kind of link building 2022.
Jason: Sure. Uh, so I think the foundation of everything when it comes to link building is how you think about the quality of the links that you build. And, uh, I think something that is really common these days is people think about, uh, individual metrics of the links that they're trying to build.
So like, uh, super common is like, Oh, I only want links that have like a DA or dr. Like of more than 20 or 30 or whatever number you, you you wanna pick. And, uh, we take, we, we look at like many more factors of link quality. Um, but the big thing that we do is like, uh, balance these factors, uh, against each other.
So I think these days, like no link is, is perfect. Uh, and you gotta start with that, uh, realization. And then when you're looking at a website and looking at a link and thinking, do you wanna build it or not? You need to balance the positive factors about that link against the negative factors of that link.
So, for example, Uh, maybe you have a website that has like, uh, you know, a, a strong Dior and like gets a ton of organic traffic, but, uh, it's a little bit like the relevance to your site is not super tight. It's a little bit of a broader site or something like that. And so you have, you have the two columns of things there.
Column A is like, The good things about the site, like lots of organic traffic, like really high dror in column B, negative things about the site, it's not super related to, to your website and is, is a little bit broad. And we look at other things too. Like for example, the, um, the quality of the outbound links o of of the site.
It's like, um, like are they linking to just like all sorts of, of shady places in like every single post? Like is it like a, a link farm or, or is it like on the other hand like totally clean, uh, or is it, is it somewhere in, in between those two things And uh, but you got your column A good things column B, a column B, bad things, and then trying to balance them against each other.
So are the, are the positive factors in column A? Uh, do they outweigh the negative factors in column B? And if they do, then cool, you build that link and uh, and if they don't, then, then you don't build that link. And so, uh, we have. Our own way of doing this and, and how we weight the different factors, uh, against each other.
Uh, we put like a lot of, uh, waiting or a lot of importance on the relevance of the links. Uh, and also I really like the amount of traffic that a website gets as an indicator, uh, of. Of quality just because to, to me, it's like if a website, if Google is sending a website, you know, 50 or a hundred thousand, uh, visits a month from their platform, that's, that's a pretty good, a pretty decent indication of, of quality to me.
So, uh, we, we really like those two and put to a lesser extent, uh, domain rating. I, I don't like so much, but it's still worth considering as like a, a rough approximation of the strength of a, of a link profile. And, um, yeah, we, we look at all these things and, uh, apply our different, uh, importance waitings to the various factors and then balance all the factors against each other for every link we build.
And then we have a, a simple spreadsheet tool where we, we put all these factors in and, and sort of balance it all out and then come to a conclusion at the end of like, do we wanna build the link or not? And once you, everyone can set their own, uh, ev every, like, everyone sort of needs to come up with, um, their own version of this based on.
Their risk tolerances and, and like, uh, mostly their risk tolerance because some people wanna, they only wanna build like, uh, really, really sort of safe, uh, clean links. Like they only want li if you have, uh, a few have a website about fishing, they only want, uh, links from other websites, uh, about, about fishing for, for example.
And, uh, some people wanna do it that way and it's like, If that is your approach to link building and that's the way that you, uh, approach your risk tolerance, then you can, you can set up this sort of balance of factors based, based on, on that. Whereas if you're willing to be a little bit more aggressive and think like, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna expand my, uh, quality standards for the trade off of being able to build more links, because I think that that is, is, is the better balance and it's more within my risk tolerance, then you can do that as well by, by sort of changing the way that the way that you, uh, weight, uh, the different factors and how you balance them, uh, against each other.
And so, All, all that gives really good clarity because when you start building links, even for me, I, I see it now. Sometimes I will look at a link and, um, straight away, like I apply all sorts of different, uh, biases. Like I'll open the homepage and get like a kneejerk reaction and think like, Oh, this site of shit for like whatever reason.
But then if I actually go and like put it into our spreadsheet tool and balance all the factors against each other, I actually realize, ah, It's actually, it will be a good link because the redeeming qualities, the good things about outweigh, outweigh the bad things. And so, uh, it's, especially if you have a team of link builders and you wanna define a single standard, sitting down and coming up with something like this is, is really, really useful.
And I think that's the foundation, uh, of, of link building, uh, these days. Uh, and then the game beyond that is to get as many opportunities coming across your, your desk as, as you can. I think the best way to do that is, is with, uh, email, email outreach and like quite a broad approach to outreach. Just get as many responses and websites coming across your desk as you possibly can.
Then you just put all of those through your, your quality filters and anything that passes the quality filter. Then, you know, you build that link. And anything that doesn't, you don't build that link. And that's, that's the way we approach it. And I, I think. I don't, uh, I, I think, um, it's slightly uncommon to approach it that way where you're balancing the factors against each other.
I think not enough people do that these days. And I, I think there's a lot of benefit, uh, in doing it that way. And it lets you strike the right balance between maintaining, uh, enough, uh, high enough quality standard, and also building enough quantity, uh, of links to be competitive. Because if you, it's a big counterintuitive, but if you restrict your quality standards too much, then you don't build a high enough volume of links and then you're restricting them based on your definition of quality.
But it's different than Google's definition of quality. And then your competitor who has a broader definition of quality is building a higher quantity of links, and then they just beat you at the end of the day. So people think they're being, Sometimes it's a fairly common thing. I see people, uh, think they're being, uh, like lowering their risk by tightening their quality standards like a lot.
Um, but they do it too far and, uh, without realizing it, they kill their ability to, to build a decent quantity of links. And that is actually a risk in itself too, because, uh, then you lose your competitors who are, who are building, uh, more links. So I think that's sort of an underappreciated risk, um, of, of, yeah, how, how many people build, uh, links these days and, and think about the quality.
Jared: talk about those factors. If we could, maybe, could we just give some high levels about what are bullet point lists? What's a bullet point list of like the good factors to think about? What are some things that should end up on bad factors, Things that are bad in the link, um, that someone is considering to build?
Jason: Uh, so we look at the, the main rating, the traffic, uh, the quality of the outbound, uh, link profile, uh, the relevance at, uh, three different levels, like the relevance of the website as a whole, the relevance of the specific page, uh, on the website, and then the relevance of the specific section, uh, of, of that page and like the, the anchor text and, and the specific placement.
Uh, we're also looking at, for the organic traffic, we're looking. Where that organic traffic comes from. So the, the countries that it's coming from and, uh, and the keywords that the, the website, uh, ranks for. Uh, and also the trend in that traffic. Uh, we wanna avoid websites that have like a big sudden drop in organic traffic, for example, which could be a sign that, that Google has changed their mind, uh, about, about that website.
Um, so tho those are, those are what we, we look at and balance all those factors against each other. Uh, and then I would say we also have some, like, hard no factors. So for example, the, um, like websites that are just too much like, like a, a pure sort of link farm. Like, it doesn't, when you see something like that, like all of these factors kind of matter a lot less just because I think there's so much more risk to a website where you go and, and look and every single page just like has obvious paid links to like low quality, uh, places.
I would say that that's a, that's a, a big, uh, type of, of site to, to avoid. And so, The way we, the way that we're starting to think about it lately is we, the first step in the quality grading is we put all the links through, like, um, a hard no gate. And if, if they pass through that gate, then we go and look at, uh, all of these other factors, the domain rating, the, the traffic, the relevance and balancing all them, uh, off each other.
And then coming up with the final thing of like, do we wanna build this link or not?
Jared: I think you've touched on it twice now, and maybe for someone who is just thinking about building links, the topic of which. Websites to avoid links from is, is probably a bit scary, right? Like, how do I know if that website that's offering me a link or that I'm working with to get a link from, is a Link Farm is a pbn.
Uh, obviously 10 years ago PBNs were pretty obvious. Many are harder to find now, and especially these link farms that don't look outwardly as though they're, they're necessarily bad. What are some tips for people to identify what a Link Farm website looks like? What a, what a PB insight looks like, Uh, especially in today when they're maybe a little harder to find.
Jason: Uh, I, I think you can actually identify them reasonably well by, by looking at, at the website and also at the, the outbound links. Uh, so like looking at the website, most of these link farms like people, the owners actually don't put that much effort into them. Uh, I think you go and, and look at it and it's just, It's, it's just like a basic WordPress theme is what it looks like.
And the, the homepage, there's no branding on the homepage. The homepage is just like all of their most recent posts. And usually there's been like five posts in the last, uh, with a date of like the last day. And like every single one of them is on a different topic, like supplements for this, like invest in crypto for this, CBD for that.
Like all these different like random topics. And, uh, so if you, so that's the first thing. If you open a website and you see just a generic, like simple WordPress, Plus all of these like, stock photos and like all, a whole array of different topics that's already like, okay, that's the, it's, it's looking pretty sketchy.
And, uh, it highlights all the links on the page. I'm sure there's plenty of extensions out there that do that. So I, I quickly scrolled through and I, I'm just looking at the links on the page, looking for like the obvious low quality links, obvious paid links. Uh, and usually on a site like this, if the homepage looks the way I described, you can identify these like within seconds of looking at the pages.
So open four or five pages, look at. If you see like, like a link to like, um, the lead generation page of, of a law firm and the anchor text is like NYC Lawyer. Uh, if you see links to like, uh, best, like best X pages from like different affiliate sites, that's another like, uh, fairly obvious, like, like paid link.
Um, and it's also pretty common like, uh, c b casinos and like essay writing services are like really, really common ones that, that you'll see, uh, as well. I dunno why the essay writing services are, are so common in there, but they're, there's links to those everywhere on these sites. Um, and so that is the next place to look is like, look at the outbound links of, of, of those, uh, of those articles.
Uh, and then, uh, also in a f. It's the SEO tool that I use and, and we use, We Outreach. Uh, if you go to the outbound links, uh, report, that's, that's an easier way to do what I just described, uh, in like a, a faster and, and more bulk way. So you can go there and like sort, uh, so that you can see, uh, the links by the most recent ones at the top.
Uh, and then just start like scrolling through and try and get a sense of like the outbound link habits of the website right now and get a sense of like, yeah, are, are they linking to legitimate sources or is, are they just like linking to like all these shitty places over and over again? And I think that's the best way to do it.
And I think the last thing I would say is it's, so there's, there's I guess, three different groups that I, that I would put websites into. On the one end of the spectrum, you have like these pure link farms, like they're a hundred percent, like you should avoid them. They're super obvious and they're sort of in one bucket.
Then, uh, on the other side you have like, Sites that are like, fairly legitimate and like, uh, they're, they do more, The sites serve a purpose beyond just like linking out to other, to other sites. Like they actually have some sort of branding, like they produce content, they get traffic for, for, uh, relevant keywords or keywords that makes sense.
Stuff like that. And then in the middle, you. Like all, all sorts of, all like a range of different sites between these two things. So like sites that are like not a pure link, like not as obvious as the, what I just described, but like they're so that maybe they have their homepages a little bit better, but they still just have tons of, of, uh, of, So they still just have tons of articles and tons of shitty outbound links and, um, so you need to think about where it is.
A link farm is not a black and white, like yes or no. A link farm is on like a, uh, a, a spectrum and you need to think about where the link farm is on that spectrum. And sometimes if it's on the safer or like higher quality end of that spectrum, it can still sometimes be worth building the link if it has other, uh, redeeming quality.
So if the site gets a lot of organic traffic, if the DR is okay if the, the, the. If the topical focus of the website is narrow, So if it's a, if it's like a bit link for, but it focuses like entirely on personal finance and you have a personal finance website, for example, and the website gets good traffic, then it might be worth considering building that link.
Um, because, and again, it's thinking about it in this way of like balancing the good factors against the God, but the bad factors. And so, yeah, I, I think about Link Farms on, on a spectrum, uh, like, like that
Jared: there never was a more appropriate time to use a phrase. It depends In seo, I think . Yeah, . It's a good answer though.
Yeah, and I think you're right. There's uh, certainly learn how to avoid the obvious ones and the big one, like the obvious Link Farms and PBNs is, is really the, probably the. Uh, most important approach that people need to need to grasp. Uh, if, if you're just starting link building, you talked about it a couple minutes ago.
Let's, let's go back to it. This idea of relevance. Um, maybe I'll set the stage as relevance versus power, or maybe there's other factors to put into that comparison. Uh, the idea of. Maybe a high, high DR site or just maybe a high traffic site or a well aged site. The idea that this site has a lot of power going for it, I'm using air quotes for those of you listening on the podcast versus relevance, maybe a low traffic site, maybe a low DR site, maybe a site that's brand new, but spot on about your topic that you're trying to rank for, be to link to.
Obviously it depends or, or both, or, you know, obviously in a perfect world, we want that fishing site that's a Dr. 91, but how does a site owner balance or approach this topic of power versus relevance? I hope I did a good job giving you kind of a, a larger topic to, to, to toy with there.
Jason: Yeah, yeah. Sure. Uh, I, I get it.
And I think, um, yeah, like you said, uh, links. From either of those types of websites can be good and probably a, uh, probably you want like a mix of links from both of those different types of websites because they're, they're both good, but for, for different reasons. And so, uh, and, and that's, that's, uh, the main reason that we, we have this, uh, like the, the quality framework I described earlier.
The, the thing is, uh, it balances all of the factors against each other and it kind of gives you this, uh, framework that you can set up to, to see what is a quality link. Uh, but also it accounts for the fact that, uh, it can be a quality link for different reasons. And, um, and so it kind of comes back to that thing I think of like balancing the good factors against, against the bad factors, uh, of a link.
So if a website has a lot of power, like that's great and so long as the, so long as the other. The other side of it, like being like, uh, like the, the, the relevance and stuff. So long as that isn't too bad and it doesn't pull down, it doesn't detract too much from the power side of the equation, then it's probably a link that's worth building.
And on the other hand, if it's like super high relevant, super clean, like, uh, for example, you have like a gardening website and you're getting a link from like a gardening center that like doesn't barely links out to anyone else. Like they're just running their gardening center and they have like a blog associated with that.
And you manage to get a link from. But it's only like theor 15 and gets like 500 visitors a month or something from, from, from Google. It's still a great link because it's like, uh, so relevant and also pretty rare. And like usually those links come because, uh, your website and, uh, your, the resources that you are promoting on your website are like really, really high quality and like really, really worth that website, uh, linking to them, which means that your competitors can't get that link, which I think is a big thing.
Like if you are, uh, if you're only using like link farm sites or sites where it's just really, really easy to buy a link, like they sell links to anyone, like all of your competitors and like anyone can copy those links and so they're uh, they're less rare and, and less valuable. And so I really like the small sites, uh, as well.
Like these, these. Like a gardening center linking to your gardening website. I think links like that are, are, uh, are awesome. Um, and yeah, but I, I think a healthy Link profile has like a mix of, of all of these things. And yeah, I think you need to be open minded with it. And, and just think about it in this way of like balancing the good factors of the link against the bad factors, uh, of, of, of the link.
Jared: Are there ever scenarios where for a specific website you see maybe a greater need for the higher power type of links, or a greater need for the high relevance links? Is it just a situation where, oh, you don't have as many links that are relevant, so let's get some more relevant links versus power? Or is it like, oh, you know, your website's new so you need a lot of powerful links more so than relevant links.
Like, are there ever scenarios where you see the need for one over the other or more of one over the other? I
Jason: think when a website is new, it doesn't matter as much. Like, uh, and the thing is, so the other thing with link building is it's, it's difficult to build like only one type of, of link. And so no matter what you do, you're gonna get some sort of, some sort of a mix anyway.
Um, and unless you are. Like the, you could build like one specific type of link, but the cost is like, uh, much more inefficiency. So like, if you decide I only want links from these local sites, that's fine. But like your cost per link is gonna be, it's gonna be massive just because of like, uh, restricting yourself so much.
So for a new site, I think just like building a, any type of link, like a mix of like the relevant ones and the high power ones, um, I, I think that's good. Uh, and that like starts to put the, the foundation, uh, in place for the website. And new websites are honestly like, pretty, pretty easy, uh, from the link building perspective.
Like if you, if you have good, the foundation of like good content and like, um, really good onsite optimization. So a good, uh, structure of the website, good internal link structure, good architecture of the website. Uh, plus also like well optimized content and, and high quality content if you have that as the foundation.
With link building, you don't, you'd like for a new site, you don't need to think that too much too. You don't need to think too deeply about it. Like just start building links, like build a mix of different links. And it's when you combine these two things together, good content plus good links, like you start, you start to see, uh, the results, uh, pretty reliably.
I think, um, when a website start to get, uh, a a bit more developed, um, it starts to make sense to look at individual pages on that website and look at like, okay, this page like ranks, uh, like 10th right now. But if we build like, uh, x links directly to this page, it has a chance to be in like the top five, top three, something like this.
And, uh, I think that's when it makes more sense to start looking at the, uh, specific, uh, profiles, link profiles of the competitor pages, and looking at what, what type of links do they have? Like what's the strength of the links that they have and what do we need to build to be, uh, to be competitive, uh, with those.
And, uh, usually so. This, this type of link building is much more costly because, uh, you are restricting yourself to just a single page. So when, normally when we email, uh, a website, uh, if we've, like, even if we built a campaign around a specific page, if we email a website and they reply to us, and for some reason the original page doesn't work out, we can still say like, Oh, like, can we do a guest post?
Or like, Oh, we got this other page, like, maybe you'd link to us to that one instead. Or like, we have other, other options. And that adds a lot of efficiency to, to link building. But when you're restricted to just an individual page, uh, it, it becomes a lot more costly. Basically, your cost, cost per link goes, goes up when you're focused on, on specific, uh, pages like this.
So usually it's only worth it for commercial pages where you're gonna see, you're gonna make a, like a decent roi. You're gonna, you're gonna generate more revenue when you, uh, move from like position 10 to position three or, or something, uh, like that. So it's worth the worth this higher, uh, investment. So that's, that's kind of the way, the way we, we think about.
Yeah, that makes
Jared: a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. Let's transition a bit and talk about processes for link building. We've, we've spent so much time talking about how to evaluate quality links and what is a quality link and balancing all this stuff. Let's shift to processing, uh, or the process that you guys have set up.
I love how you broke it down a little bit and I wanted to maybe double down on it. You talked about how, if you can, there it is just a big system. It's just a big process. And for you guys, success has really laid in optimizing each of those things. You improved deliverability, you've improved your, uh, ability to build links, and you started talking about it.
I, I even wrote it down. Uh, one of the processes is how to prospect for contacts. One of the processes is deliverability, one of the processes, having rock solid email templates. Maybe can you outline for us what are the different buckets or processes that get assembled into link building? Um, so people can kind of get their mind around, Oh, I need to, I need to optimize that.
I need to optimize that, I need to be good at that.
Jason: Sure. Yeah. So the, a link building campaign is like made up of your, uh, your prospect list, uh, and the, your, your prospect list, the, the target page or target website where you're trying to build the links, and then, uh, the messaging that you're gonna send to that prospect list.
So whatever the template is, um, and the, uh, our link start by building, uh, those two things, the template and the prospect list, and we build the prospect list. The, So the prospect list is based on, on the target page, target website. We do it in two ways. Uh, we either scrape Google for like relevant keywords, so if we have, uh, if we're building links for a gardening website, I always use gardening websites as the example.
But it just, it always comes to, I, I feel like the more often I use it, the more likely I am to use it the next time. And now it's been like two years and I just keep using gardening websites. Okay. But good one. . Yeah, . But, um, so if we're building links for, uh, a gardening website and we're building a prospect list, we would do things for scraping Google.
We would do things like, um, find keywords about like, uh, plant care for different types of plant. So like how to, how to care for like this breed of plant, how to care for that breed of plant and so on. And we, we scrape Google for these results, meaning, We have a tool scrape box or, or even you can do it with, uh, ATFs or the other SEO tools where for each one of those keywords, you go and, uh, essentially look at the results that appear in Google for these keywords.
Uh, and usually if it's, if it's a website that's writing about, like how to care for a specific type of plant, it's a web set. It's a website that is either entirely or partially about gardening. So that's a good prospect for, uh, our, our outreach for, uh, link building for the gardening website. So that's one way that we build links.
Uh, the other way is by looking at our competitors, so other, other gardening websites and looking at the, the websites that link, uh, to those gardening websites. Um, usually they are also somewhat related to gardening. And also there's a little bit, uh, there's a little bit, uh, extra there because they've already linked to some other gardening websites.
So that's kind of, that's kind of a, a good. It's an extra chance, maybe they'll link to another gardening website. Um, and so that's how, that's how we, we build, uh, the prospect, the initial prospect, uh, list. When you do this, you, you get like just, um, a big, messy list of, of, uh, of domains. Uh, and then it needs to go through several other stages, uh, of filtering.
The, the first one is trying to, to find, um, uh, find the right contact for whoever runs that website. The, the easiest way, and I think the most common way of doing this is you take that list and you put it into like hunter.io or one of these, uh, other tools they have, uh, it's like an email finding tool.
They have a big database of, of emails. You put the list through there, it, it brings back the emails. Then you take the emails and then you put them through like a verification tool to like, to verify that they're valid emails and that your emails aren't gonna bounce. And going through this process with, with this simple way, if you start with a, with a raw list of, let's say a hundred prospects, if you put them through hunter.io, probably you're left with 60 prospects after that, that it has found an email address for, uh, and then after you, uh, c like verify the deliverability of that email address, maybe you're down to like 30 or, or 40, uh, that actually have a valid email from the initial list of, of 100.
And that's the simple way to, to. That I think most link builders, I think they do a simple process like this. That's the simple one. . Yeah. I
Jared: hate to hear the complicated
Jason: women . Well, the, the, the thing is that this way is just using a series of different tools. So true. Yeah. You, you gotta hum that io you throw it in there, you gotta never bounce your throat it in there.
And, and it's fairly straightforward, but cumbersome but
Jared: simple to kind of understand and grasp. Yeah.
Jason: Yeah. And, and, uh, there's, there's a much more. The, the more complex way, which I'll just touch on briefly because I, I think it's something that nobody does, but is like, really, really, it's one of the areas where you can get a competitive advantage, uh, over everyone else who's doing similar processes, which is to like, uh, manually, uh, identify the, the best contact for, for the, the website that, that you are for the, for the prospect website.
And there's a, a few benefits to that. Firstly, your email is gonna be going to the right person. So if you take a second just to, to look at who works at the company and like you send your email to like the editor instead of sending it to the customer support person or something like that, that already improves, uh, improves your chances.
The other thing is that there's a lot of email addresses that you can find either by looking at the website itself, or this is my favorite tip coming up. You go, uh, on, on LinkedIn, uh, you need to get sales navigator to get like access to like, uh, all of the. All of the LinkedIn data, they, they like won't show you the names of people who work in specific roles or companies, but you find the company on, on LinkedIn, you find, uh, who is the most appropriate person at that company in a small company.
Maybe it's the owner in a bigger company, maybe it's like a content writer or like, uh, an editor or something, something like that. And then, um, pretty often their email address will not be listed in one of these email finding tools. And, but you can, uh, there's like five or six different, um, versions of email addresses that are the most common, uh, at, at these companies.
So it can be like first [email protected], first name, second [email protected]. So you just, uh, you, and there's, there's tools like, uh, where you can like just put in the name, fir first name, surname, and the, uh, domain. And it will like pump out this like 10 different versions of the email address. Then you just take all those and put them into an email verification tool.
And then one of them will come back as like a valid email address. And then now you found, uh, an email that. Is like for a good person, but also an email that like 99% of other link builders can't find because they're just using these automated tools and now you have an an address that's like, they're not getting spammed to death every day by like people asking for links.
Because, because that's why people experience whose email address is in one of these databases. They're just, everyone is just doing it. So you can, so that, that's a nice tip for how you can get a little extra, uh, edge at, at like this stage of the preparing your, your, your prospect list, um, like stage of putting the campaign together.
And once the prospect list is, is ready, then your email template is, is the other thing that's, that's important. The best email templates are short and sweet and to the point. And typically what we see working these days is focusing on what is, what is going to be, uh, valuable to the prospect that you are emailing.
Uh, typically these days they're interested in. Three things work the best. Uh, one is like paying them for a link. Many, many websites like that now, even not pure link farms, like websites that are care about their editorial, editorial standards and have good content and everything, they still wanna get paid.
They understand that they're doing something value both for you and they want a piece of the action. Uh, the other thing is doing, uh, guest posts. Uh, so you can base your templates around these things. Uh, and the other is, um, a three way link exchange, which, uh, is maybe easier for us to do with the scale that we have as an agency.
But it's where you email someone and, and say, Hey, I'd like a link. If you link to my website, I'm doing all this email outreach to like all these other prospects. I'll get you a link from one of their prospects to, to your website. And here's the quality standards I'll use. And then, and then that's like, That appeals to some websites, but it depends on, every prospect is kind of different, and it depends on what matters to them.
Some just want the cash. Some are doing their own SEO and they want the links. So this threeway link exchanges is, is appealing. Uh, and, and others are, are happy to take like free content in the form of like, uh, a good guest post. And so you can play around with different, uh, templates. But the main thing is your email templates.
The main thing is to think about what matters to the, to the prospect. Many, many people when they're writing these templates, do they focus. Very much on their own brand. Like, Hey, we have this great article about, like, whatever, would you check it out? Would you give me feedback? Would you link to it? And like, more and more, uh, like people, this has been, this used to work much better like three, four or five years ago now.
People are just like seeing these types of emails over and over again, and they're just jaded and they just don't care anymore. So I think it makes a lot more sense these days to focus on the prospect rather than focusing, uh, on, on yourself. And yeah, keep, keep the templates like really short and, and sweet usually helps to like start with a joke.
Like get their attention in some way. Stand out from like all of the other emails they're getting in the day. Make them smile. Makes them more likely to read your email and actually, uh, engage with you. Um, and that's, those are some like quick tips for, for, uh, an, an email template. Um, I guess the last two things are the deliverability of the email, uh, and then like, also like handling the responses that you get, uh, I guess handling, if you've done everything else.
Well, handling the responses is one of the easier parts, but the deliverability, the, the main thing for that is, uh, is showing, uh, email providers like the big inboxes, uh, like, uh, uh, Outlook and, and Gmail and Google that you, that you are like a quality sender. So it means like not sending emails in, in too high, uh, of, of a volume before you're, your, like, you need to build up to it.
If you, if you're just starting this from fresh start out sending like 10 emails a day, like use mail shake or, or one of these other like book uh, email sending tools. Start to sending 10 emails a day to like warm up the, your, um, your, your, uh, your domain. Uh, if you go too, too hard, too quickly. Like the inbox providers, like they think like, Oh shit, like this guy's emailing a lot.
Like we've never seen this domain before. Like it must be something spammy. Like, let's, let's like just add into the spam folder. So you gotta be careful about. And then a more sophisticated way is sort of, uh, engineering responses to your campaigns. So, uh, there's like services out there now that you can, uh, that, that you can sign up to where, uh, you basically join like a network of other people who are trying to improve the health of their email inboxes and their software just like send emails from all the different accounts to each other, and then their software will like mark the email as not spam and like respond to the email or something like that.
So basically this is a way of sending good signals to the algorithms of the email, uh, providers. Similar to SEO in, in a way. Like we build links to send good signals to Google. You, you have good email interactions to send signals to Google also, but for their, uh, spam algorithms and, and stuff. So that's another, uh, important factor like engineering that.
So go slow. Use one of these services to like engineer, uh, some, some responses to make your inbox look healthy and make it look like people are responding to you. And then when people do respond to you, even if they say like, Ah, no, go away. Make sure you always reply back to them and say like, Ah, Thanks.
No worries. I won't wor bother you anymore. Have some sort of, uh, interaction because the more, uh, the more real life emails back and forth that you have between your account and other people, the healthier your inbox is, is gonna be. So you need to maximize these like, health signals of your inbox. And it's all this stuff that helps you get in the inbox, uh, when you send your emails and if you don't pay any attention to this, you end up either in the promotions folder or the spam folder.
And that like is detrimental to the, um, to the quality of your campaign. So that's doing this well is, is another way that you can, you can e out, uh, another, another edge. Um, when you actually get the responses, it's just talking to the person and trying to figure out, uh, how can I persuade this person coming to me?
Like, uh, is it gonna be a guest post? Um, do they just want a payment? Um, or, or like a threeway link exchange or. Can I say something witty, like, to make them laugh and make them like me more, and then they're linked to me for that. It's like, it's a little bit like sales and you need to be a little bit creative with, with the emails, but, um, all the work we've done up to this point is in like, like teeing up the ball.
And when it's in the inbox, you just need to be like ready to like knock it out of the park. And, um, that's like the final step of, of getting the link. And yeah, again, it's another place at the very bottom of the machine where you can also be more effective than other people and get another edge there and like, make, make the most of the opportunities that you've, uh, generated for yourself and build as many links as possible.
And that's probably . Yeah, that's, that's an overview of the link building process. Maybe. I, I went, uh, into too much detail, uh, in certain parts, but, uh, yeah, hopefully some of that is useful.
Jared: Oh, it's really good. It's really good. I was taking notes over here, feverishly. I think your comments on deliverability are, Probably I wanted to highlight just because it's probably an area that's off missed or glossed over by people and uh, but you know, like we don't know what we don't know.
You don't know when your email is not really making it into people's inboxes and so it's kind of this, the dog that doesn't bark sort of scenario. Are there any ways that you know of to identify, I guess would be the best way? Like how do you know if you have a deliverability problem? Are there any ways to see that or sense that?
Jason: mean, I mean, quick thing you can do is like e email your personal Gmail address and, and see where it lands. But obviously that's not, uh, you know, the most reliable or consistent way to do it. Um, there's a tool that we use, I think it's glock apps.com. Uh, if you go there, uh, that's basically, uh, so Block Apps has like 50 different, uh, email addresses at like, so much email, somewhat Outlook, et cetera.
Uh, they give you, um, and they'll give you this list of emails and. Uh, you basically send your campaign template to them, uh, and they'll give you an ID to include in it. And so they know when it hits their inboxes, they know that this id, uh, like when they see this id, they know it's coming from your accounts, basically.
Uh, and then they monitor the deliverability in all of these inboxes, and you get a, and you get a report. You're in the, in. With Google, but you're in the spam folders with Outlook for, for example. And then they'll also check the actual messaging and tell you like, Oh, you've used keywords that commonly trigger spam filters.
And it's really, it's quite thorough. Uh, and they give you like a really good, uh, report. And then the next step beyond that, of course, is if you are in the spam folders or you have issues like your IP addresses on a blacklist, actually figuring out how to address those issues is like a whole other, um, kettle of, of fish.
Uh, sometimes it's, it's, yeah, it's like the whole other podcast. I bet. . Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Whole other deal. . Okay. Okay.
Jared: We'll leave that, We'll leave that. Um, yeah, I wanna get your thoughts on, uh, some other things that you probably learned through LinkedIn, but before I, we transition. One more question. Any other operational like, tips that you can give people?
I mean, it's clear you're an operations. Uh, master. I'll, I'll say just with all these moving parts, uh, but any other tips for, uh, maybe not specifically about that link building process, but just operational tips that help, uh, give you better success when it comes to link building.
Jason: So I have an operations manager, and he's been a game changer for me because he's good at a lot of the things that I'm not good at.
I'm good at seeing from the high level how this machine should come together. And I'm, I'm good at like figuring out like, oh, but like if we just do this, like this thing to like manage the deliverability like that, that can work, uh, or this can like, help with the deliverability, but he's really good at taking those ideas and then like operationalizing them and like making sure that they're done consistently and making sure that the whole team understands them.
And so like the tools he uses for doing that are, are like, um, like. Good, good project tracking, like some sort of, um, project management software so you can like, keep on top of your, um, like some stats for your campaigns and how things are going and who's, who's managing those and what the goals for those campaigns are and how you're progressing towards those.
And then the, the, the people management is probably like the biggest part of that. Like getting everyone, uh, pulling in the right direction and behind the same set of standards is it's really, really difficult. Like really difficult. Maybe the most difficult thing about, about running, uh, an an agency is just keeping everyone, uh, aligned and it gets like exponentially more difficult as you, as you hire more people.
And, but even at, even at a small size, it's, it's difficult even if you only have like two or three people. And so I, I think having a good structure, like look up some sort of, um, Uh, structures for like weekly meetings with, with your, uh, with your direct reports and how you should approach that. Like, it should be that you as the manager are supporting them, not that they're supporting, uh, you.
So that should be, that's a, that's a good like, framework for approaching these meetings. Uh, and then like setting weekly goals, like reviewing those goals every week on, on the call. Uh, and like making sure you stay on top of your training and, and every, everything like that. Um, and as, as the company gets bigger, you need to think more about like, the culture of the business and, and stuff like this.
But, um, even at, even at the small level, I think, uh, having good people, Hiring. It's a, it could be a podcast in itself, uh, as well. Uh, I'll, I'll give a shout to my friend, uja recruiter mill.com. He's like awesome at hiring. He's hired everyone for me for the last, like two years. Uh, so, but he does it so well because he has the, the framework down and he's, he's done it many times.
And so it's like everything else you need to get your reps in to, to get better at, uh, at, at hiring. But hiring really good people and then managing them effectively is like crucial. It, like, it, it holds you down so much if, if you don't have good people to like run these operations. So yeah, outside of the specifics of link building, I think your people management stuff is, is by far the most, uh, challenging and, and most important aspect.
Jared: Makes sense. Makes sense. Let's with a few minutes left that we have, uh, let's go a bit off topic and I mean, look, you, you build hundreds and hundreds of links a month, which means that you interact with. Tens of thousands of websites a month, but you also get to kind of be on the inner circle on the websites that you're building links for, um, web, I mean, you know, obviously you're understanding their needs and then the links they need, the links you get what that ends up doing for the site.
Um, you also have vision into which niches have more difficult niches to build links in versus easier. Like, I just love to get some top level insights that you've learned about, whether it's niche selection or competition or what, what works, um, and what works better in certain areas. Like I just feel like you have so much access that none of us get to have.
Jason: So the most interesting, uh, sites and niches for me are the ones that are in, uh, more obscure but very high value, uh, niches and, and industries. So I think when many people are, are getting started, i, in this game, uh, things like, uh, things like fishing, gardening, camping slash hiking, like all these types of things at golf, like are really, uh, easy to understand.
Like you can, you can visualize very easily how, how that can work because there's such mainstream topics like, okay, a golf website. I review golf clubs like. I like, and Amazon the most accessible affiliate program in the world, probably. It's like, okay, I can see the pieces of that. And then, and then you gotta learn all the other, it's it all the other things about like setting up a website and hosting and WordPress and blah da da.
And so I think that's a, a good place to start. But the ones that are more interesting to me are the more obscure ones, Like things that aren't necessarily, um, super mainstream. Like, uh, certain elements of, of, uh, of the personal finance, uh, industry or like, uh, like investment stuff, particularly like these industries where there's, there's a lot, a lot of money and even like a small, uh, subash of a sub niche almost can have like, uh, um, a, a massive.
Uh, potential to earn, uh, to, to earn money with like, uh, a very low amount of, of users sometimes. So like, and I think it's a really good exercise for people to si to sign up to. So the easy thing to do is just go to Amazon and like use that affiliate a program. But if you're willing to like go to offer vault.com or one of these other places that has like, uh, a bunch, like you can find just a bunch of different affiliate networks there.
Just go and spend like two or three hours just start signing up to affiliate networks. And most of them will have reps that are like willing to get on the phone with you and, and talk about what they see working. And these affiliate networks, like their job is, is to get as many offers as they can from, from companies.
And obviously like they also. They also wanna earn from, or they also earn more from the high value, uh, niches. And so the affiliate managers, they're very happy to tell you about like, which industries are, are the best. And like, they'll even tell you like the, the earnings per click from like all these different offers and industries that they have.
And it takes you, you can get some, some of the, you can get access to some of this just by browsing offer volt. That is also really, really useful just to see some of these more obscure things. Uh, but if you actually go and talk to the affiliate managers, uh, they like, you can even, you can even pitch them an idea like, Hey, I've been doing research on, on this niche.
I see you have this offer about it. Is there anyone else doing seo? Like, and how successful are they? Sometimes they'll even show you the competitor's websites and you can like go and like reverse engineer them on atress and stuff like that. But it does take, it does take, like getting on the phone and a lot of people just aren't willing to do that.
But if you, Yeah, like think about this like a like. A real business, uh, where you would go and like, interact with people and you can get like a really, really a lot of insights and, and big advantages by, by doing things, uh, like this. And yeah, those are the most interesting types of sites that, that I see.
Um, and the other concept that I would keep in mind is something like, uh, something like a, an uh, a website that's focused on the Amazon affiliate program that can be like the investment in content and links for that is not always huge and you stand a good chance at making a return from like the relatively small investment.
And a lot of people shy away from the, some of the more difficult niches like personal finance and investing and things like that because they think like, Oh, it's super competitive, which it is. And it, it takes like much more, it takes much more investment, which is also true, but you can actually sometimes, uh, Even if, So there's two things.
One, you can sometimes make a higher return on inve, on investment percentage than you would at the, at the lower, at the smaller niches. So that's al already a good thing. But also, even if your ROI is lower for a bigger industry like this, your actual real money returns. Can be a lot bigger because let's say you invest five grand in like a fishing site or something like that, and over the lifetime of the site, like your, your return on this project is, is like, let's say 20 grand or something like that.
So you've had like a massive ROI on the five grand. On the other hand, you choose like a super competitive niche where you need to invest like 50 grand or a hundred grand or, or, or something like that. And uh, like let's say it's 50 grand and you make, like, your return from that is, is a hundred grand. The, the actual percentage return on investment is much lower, but the real money returns is, is like much larger.
And so I, I think, uh, as you get more advanced as an affiliate, it makes more sense to use those skills that you have to go for these higher competition, uh, niches. And a way to like really get, get your mind running and get ideas flowing for these is like sign up to 20 different affiliate networks, Get on some calls and, and let them tell you like what's working now and, and, uh, shit like reveal the, the competitors for you so you can go and, uh, Reverse engineer and get some ideas.
Wow. That is,
Jared: uh, that's a good tip for niche selection and not one I have ever heard before. that, So that hour flew by Jason. That was, uh, that was phenomenal. I, um, is there anything, I mean, I'm, there's a lot of stuff, but any it really, really, really important things that we, that we didn't tackle today that you think need to get shared or that we didn't, um, that we just completely, you know, washed over and missed?
Jason: Nothing that comes to mind right now. I, The error did fly by. You're right. But I, I think we covered a lot of ground, uh, in there. I, I think, I think I need to take a nap, uh, after all this talking in, in the last hour. So not, nothing else comes to mind, Mind right now. I think we covered a lot of ground and it was, it was pretty fun.
So, yeah. Thanks John. I'm not even
Jared: kidding. We could have, like, each thing we talked about, I feel like we could have spent an hour on , so , which, uh, could be, you know, which, which, which bodes well for maybe doing a part to some point. Um, hey, so where can people learn more about We outreach and follow along with, with what you're doing or, or perhaps get in touch with you if they have any other questions?
Jason: Yeah, uh, um, I think the easiest is just we outreach.com. Uh, go there or you can, if you wanna email me, it's, it's jason we outreach.com. Um, we don't have a huge presence online, to be honest, and, uh, don't have a ton of content, uh, on, on the website. I don't. Uh, I don't have a, a blog or any, anything like that.
Like we, we mostly just do well from, uh, referrals, uh, like from from our existing clients. But, um, the, the homepage at least should give a decent idea of, of what we're about and, uh, yeah, share some of the experience that our, our clients have had with us. And, uh, yeah, other than that, like there's a form on the homepage if you're interested in, in talking to us or email me directly and, and I'm happy, happy to talk as well.
Um, so yeah, that's, that's pretty much it.
Jared: Oh, that's great. And, uh, I mean, you know, thank you for coming on board and sharing so many really amazing, detailed tactics. You know, I mean, one could think that since you're a link billing agency, you would want to talk higher level about some of these things, but, uh, you really outlined some fantastic processes that people could embrace if they wanted.
And then if they'd rather just focus on all the other things it takes to be successful with a website, obviously now understand the depth that you guys go to at We Outreach, uh, uh, in terms of building links. So it was really great and I just appreciate all of the depth that you brought us through here today.
So thank you.
Jason: Sure thing. And thanks for the good questions, Jared. I mean, uh, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have known which areas to talk about if, if you didn't like tee it up for me like that. So yeah, thanks a lot. It was pretty fun. Ah, it's great.
Jared: Well, thanks again until we talk next time. Appreciate it.
Jason: Thanks Jar. Bye-Bye.
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