A few years ago, I met Jeff Coyle at a Mastermind retreat in Mexico. Jeff quickly gained the reputation as the group's star Ping Pong player (for the record, I did beat him once). When we got down to work, it turns out his precision forehand shots were just as precise in SEO.
Jeff Coyle could be considered an SEO grandmaster. Today he runs MarketMuse, a content planning and optimization tool using Artifical Intelligence.
He has been in the SEO industry since 1999 (21 years ago). For perspective, Google search went live to the public in 1998.
MarketMuse uses machine learning and artificial intelligence to analyze content, suggest topics to cover, and create better content. It works best for SEO writers who want to develop highly effective content marketing strategies not based on gut instinct.
I've also recently been hearing all the news about GPT-3, robots writing articles, and wondering how all of this will impact content generation for bloggers and SEO's in the future.
I wanted to dive more into the subject and could not think of a better person than Jeff Coyle to explain what's going on. I'm excited to share this interview I did with Jeff to get his take on artificial intelligence as it relates to SEO, how these changes will impact us humans, and the latest advancements that Market Muse has made in machine learning for content creators.
Watch the Entire Interview with Jeff Coyle from MarketMuse
New Plans at MarketMuse
If you are interested in checking out MarketMuse, now is a great time to do it. They just recently released smaller pricing tiers that make it much more affordable for solo-publishers.
They just introduced a $79/month and $179/month plan (the options previously were much more expensive). I've personally seen good success using MarketMuse in the past to update and optimize my SEO content. I'll share some of my recent success below.
The best part? You can get 20% off those plans using a special Niche Pursuits coupon code. (Thanks Jeff!).
If you are interested in trying out Market Muse and even giving “First Draft” a try, you can use coupon code “nicheMM20” right here.Try MarketMuse Here
How I Recently Used MarketMuse to Optimize My Content
Recently I've been focused on really optimizing my existing content. You may have seen my posts about how I recently deleted over 200 articles that weren't getting traffic.
Or how I spent nearly two weeks making my new guide on building a niche website the best piece of content I could.
I would not have been able to make these decisions if it wasn't for the help of MarketMuse.
When making my updates to the Niche Pursuit site, I reached out to Jeff to catch up and talk about the future of MarketMuse. You can listen to our podcast to hear more about why Jeff and his partner created MarketMuse and their upcoming advancements in AI content writing.
MarketMuse Results on Niche Pursuits
I won't tell you it's easy. MarketMuse has a bit of a learning curve, but once you get the process down. It is proven to get your SEO content ranking how you want it.
Just a short time after using MarketMuse, I was able to get my page back to the number one spot in Google!
I was averaging 300 organic pageviews a week for nearly the last year. I made the updates, and the results nearly doubled the SEO traffic on the page. I'm confident it's still going to go up. It just too early to tell.
As an added bonus, referral and direct traffic also increased due to the extra SEO traffic. The above chart only references organic traffic.
Those results are for just one page. I can't wait to find the time to implement across my other pages that need the work.
My example using MarketMuse to optimize is if you already have content and need to maximize SEO. For those looking to implement a content creation process, here is how I would go about it.
Start Using AI for Content Writing
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- Predict Content Success
- Craft Better Content
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Step 1: Keyword and Competitor research
Your first step in any content process should be a combination of keyword and competitor research. MarketMuse knocks these out with a 1-2 punch.
Input the topic you want to cover in MarkeMuse, and it will automatically suggest the best article possible.
When you confirm headings, MarketMuse will verify your use of credit. They do have a free trial you can give it a try yourself.
In my example, I told MarketMuse I wanted to write a blog article on “Creating Blog Content.” With a few other subheadings, I thought maybe relevant to write on.
These results show the questions people are asking related to the topic:
Be patient if it takes a bit for the report to generate.
I love these reports because they are designed specifically for your website.
In my opinion, this is what MarketMust does best and beats out the competition.
As you can imagine, the keyword for “Creating Blog Content” was incredibly competitive. The topic keyword suggested creating a 6,963-word count article. When running it through different topic keywords, the results seemed a bit more manageable.
MarketMuse did a lot of the heavy lifting, finding questions, and hot topics across the web for me to write on.
When Jeff originally built MarketMuse the technology was referred to as topic modeling. One of the first AI type technologies. They've trained their algorithms to identify what it takes to write an article as an expert on the topic you've provided.
They've done this for years and the data they have shouldn't be ignored. If they recommend a certain subtopic it's likely for a good reason.
It even produces some internal and external links to consider.
Step 2: Creating a content outline or “brief”
Now that you have done your research have a great idea of what you need to write about to create authority around the topic. It's time to get writing.
This outline tool becomes especially handy when you outsource your content, but even if you are writing the content yourself, it makes a world of difference.
Follow along with the content brief as you write, and your content writing process goes so much smoother.
The report provides you precisely what keywords to use in the headings, topics to mention in the paragraph section, and the suggested word count for that particular section. In this example, 27% of the article should focus on these keywords.
MarketMuse also provides optimized anchor text you should be using for your internal and external links.
On some of the suggestions, I didn't love the recommendations provided. The tool got close, but I knew adding some of my experiences would make it much better. If I were to send this to an outsourced writer, I would use their edit tool on the brief prior to sending it.
Step 3: Write and Optimize Quality Content
(Screenshot above is the MarketMuse “Optimize” tool that I used to update my article that saw a nice bump in organic traffic)
You can get instant results as you type. With the MarketMuse optimize feature. Along with the content score. The content score is the proprietary MarketMuse rating of content breadth, depth, and comprehensiveness.
This number will get you going in the right direction, but Jeff and the MarketMuse team make it clear these are suggestions. If you are an expert in the industry you are writing about, use the research, but never stuff keywords. Focus on the quality of the content.
Everyone has their way of creating a content generation process. Having a content generation process is what is essential. The cadence of consistently producing quality content is what makes good content marketers great.
If you are struggling to create your process, it doesn't hurt to give MarketMuse a try. Their free trial allows you to get quite a bit of content ideas.
Finally, it shouldn't go without mentioning that as artificial intelligence in content writing becomes more prevalent, tools like MarketMuse will be the first to market. Their primary goal is to create quality content more manageable for you.
In our interview, Jeff talks about AI capabilities MarketMuse is currently using and the full article features that are coming sooner than we think.
Read the Full Transcript Below
Spencer: [00:00:00] Are you ready to jumpstart your next big idea, then welcome to the niche pursuits podcast. It's all about helping you find your niche, getting the motivation and strategies you need and growing your ideas into something real
everyone. It's Spencer here and welcome back to the niche pursuits podcast. What you're about to hear is an interview with Jeff Coyle from market muse.com. Now, Jeff and I have known each other for a little bit now, and we actually had the opportunity to go to a small mastermind in Mexico. And we talk about that just a little bit here in the beginning.
But Jeff is somebody that has been involved in the SEO industry for like over 20 years. I mean, we're talking about the early days of the internet. And so he has a ton of expertise and really is super knowledgeable about content marketing. And so we talk about. Artificial intelligence as it relates to content.
Uh, if you are a listener of the podcast, you know that I talked a little bit about GPT three and robots that are writing articles. And in fact, market muse has something called first draft that uses artificial intelligence and natural language processing to help draft. Content, but what it does is it actually perhaps goes a step further than GPT three goes in that it's for a very specific purpose it's for content marketers.
And so Jeff and I talk about how artificial intelligence can work for content marketers, and specifically how it will help them optimize, provide content depth and do so much more. And so we talk about. That content marketing and what market muse does and what Jeff has planned for the future as well in this interview.
So I hope that you enjoy listening to Jeff Coyle from market muse.com.
Jeff Coyle: [00:02:23] Hey
Spencer: [00:02:23] Jeff, welcome to the niche pursuits
Jeff Coyle: [00:02:25] hey, Spencer. Thanks for having me. It's good to see you.
Spencer: [00:02:29] Yup. So first question, hardest one. You're going to get where in the world did you learn to play ping pong?
Jeff Coyle: [00:02:36] That's a great question. Wow. Yeah, we've had some matches in our, in our days. Um, I, I played, uh, with a person who ended up being extremely competitive at the national level when I was young.
And so played when I was young, a lot. Yeah. And I have an interesting story. If you want a two second tampon story. Absolutely. I can't tell the one usually gets into his, his life, but I will tell you, I, uh, in my first year in college, right. You know, you're a freshman nerd. You do plan. I'm thankful I had a paddle ship and you got to the centralized mailbox.
Right. And it was from paddle towels. Real place, right? The woman who gave me that thing, I think she thought I was into some crazy stuff. And the look on her face, the woman in the mail office at Georgia tech. Um, mom is know she handed me that paddle pilot's box with full assets. So yeah, I remember, uh, starting to explain myself, but then I just grabbed it and ran out.
Spencer: [00:03:43] Just get out of there with your paddle. Yeah.
Jeff Coyle: [00:03:46] Yeah.
Spencer: [00:03:47] It's funny. I bring that up because we played some ping pong. We were in Mexico as part
Jeff Coyle: [00:03:52] of a
Spencer: [00:03:53] mastermind with, uh, rhodium, uh, the rhodium group. And, you know, you can tell within about 10 seconds, if somebody knows how to play. Play ping pong. So Jeff comes out, holding it all weird, you know, upside down like, and so anyways,
Jeff Coyle: [00:04:08] Justin, that was a good weekend.
That was money.
Spencer: [00:04:13] So I think I may have beat you at one game. I'm not sure
Jeff Coyle: [00:04:16] you did. Oh, no, no, no, no. By the, by the end of the, uh, I think I just. You got group.
Spencer: [00:04:21] I got my group, maybe got lucky, but uh, I'll take it. So thank you for that. Uh, so Jeff, let's give people a little bit of an introduction on who you are.
Um, you know, what your background is. You've got a really extensive background before market muse, which we'll dive into, but maybe just give people a brief professional background who you are, what you've done as it relates to SEO and content marketing and some of that expertise chef.
Jeff Coyle: [00:04:49] Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, you know, whether good or bad I've been doing search content strategy and lead gen.
Some flavor of conversion rate optimization for about 21 years. And I went to college, as I mentioned at Georgia tech for usability theory, computer science. Um, I was doing some, also some search engine design, but like intranet. Search like word or Parson. Um, and when I got out of school, I actually was my junior year of college.
I started as an intern with a company called knowledge form. And so knowledge storm was a, uh, we were selling leads to software, not these. Before there was content marketing, you know, it was like, we were trying to convince big B2B technology companies to have content. And when I say content to actually get their white papers out there, the ones that had historically been research documents or scholarly references brochureware, I mean, these were companies who were, you know, big multinational businesses that had full page websites at the time.
Um, and so that went from 20 to 27. In my first, you know, four months there, I realized that the place where we were getting traffic was, you know, these, these web properties and that I knew how to figure those things out. So the first, um, you know, the first. Means of us generating needs was SEO. Um, we w we then grew that into a massive network of hundreds of websites, uh, generating, you know, thousands and thousands of leads per day.
Um, to these companies, they have great email marketing practice. We had an early manual conversion rate optimization practice. Um, we were acquired by at the time. Our biggest competitor attacks argued in 2007. Where I brought my whole team, maybe multi-variate investors, SEO, technical SEO, um, paid, uh, that whole group to tax bargains.
Um, and they had previously not really fit a huge network just naturally from great writing and wonderful editorial. So we brought a kind of a power penance. Uh, TA uh, things that we can do lead gen. And I was a product manager as well for all of our leap products. Um, and it ended up becoming us bringing a practice and revving them up.
So I spent almost eight years there. We had about 30 people on our team when I finally left to go work at a private equity firm. Um, And consult, uh, right around that time is when hockey, my co-founder and I started market news and, you know, the ad tech target, it was about every possible aspect. Working with editorial teams, working with product teams, lead gen teams and building products around them.
And what really, the biggest pain point was. How do you get the editorial team, the content team. And they both are very quick to get along and also to be aligned on what data they're using to make decisions on what to create and what optimize. So we have created all these manual processes about what to do, um, And the first person who I met that was starting to innovate on that front with technology was then, you know, it was my co-founder AKI who created the first technology underneath a market news.
Um, and it immediately was successful. Really. Was the thing that made the editorial leader, the subject matter expert and the SEO finally like get on the same page, like expertise in content. You have to write great content. Um, you have to tell the story that you know, your stuff, and if you're missing things in your content that that Emmetsburg would naturally talk about an expert would come up.
If they were just really good at it. You know, you're done. I mean, you know, it, you know, it's like a, uh, you know, uh, something, you know, you, you don't know it unless you know it, and if you don't, then you're writing about it, you're in trouble on the lawn. Right. You might be able to hack it for a little bit, but you're gonna take, uh, you're going to take a meeting.
And so we build, we build solutions. That market means that really are focused on solving national. What should I create now? What should I update? What needs to be improved? What's not competitive. What's competitive. What can I win for, uh, how much investment do I need on this topic and everything in between.
Spencer: [00:09:31] so let's give people a timeframe. When did you start market muse? Um, the earliest version there.
Jeff Coyle: [00:09:37] So yeah, so AKI was working on this kind of in his, uh, spare time as like a bit of a science project. Uh, as far back as an appointee, three 2013. Uh, 2014, um, I in 20 working 15 while still at, um, tech charter got acquainted with AKI in early phase.
They didn't really have any customers, a few here and there, early evangelists. Um, and then I became effectively one of our first clients at a reasonable scale. I mean, at the time we were managing hundreds of websites. Okay. Um, and when I. Let them not yet heard about me leaving. He said, wow, we're going to really start to take this to market.
You know, these workflows, like we'll use, join me as a co-founder and take this to market. Um, so that was roughly five years ago, this week. Okay. Um, and now we're, you know, 50 people, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of customers and, you know, just continue to stress the market, um, on what it means to really get stuff done with content.
Spencer: [00:10:44] Yeah. And so, um, you touched on a little bit, I just wanted to get a sense of sort of the success of market muse ride, kind of roughly it's been five years, uh, that you've been with market muse. Um, any success metrics you're willing to share for how well market muse is doing you say you've got 50 employees.
Um, so obviously you're supporting that, but, but what else can you give us an idea of the success there?
Jeff Coyle: [00:11:08] Uh, you know, a couple of successes I'll, I'll, I'll talk about. It are relate to, you know, how much interest we're able to drive. I'm really proud of our content team. Um, we're able to generate so much demand because it's something that everybody wants.
You know, it is this thing that, you know, I I'm always doubting whether I'm creating the right content, I'm always doubting. And so I think our messaging around that. Has, you know, really, really improved focus on the things that everyone has challenged with, but also it's a solution for, we have solutions for enterprise, so large public, large B2B technology companies.
Um, while I can't get into, you know, explicit, um, you know, customers or revenue or those types of things. Right. But I can say is that. The thing I'm most proud of, I guess, but from a team is that we, we eat our own dog food. I mean, we use market muse and we're successful with it. I mean, and that's really the special thing for me.
Cause it's, you know, that loses confidence in the offering the, for the longest time. This market market meters was kind of a, um, what did someone say? It was, uh, a gym membership for the most elite and SEO teams, you know, like, don't tell your friends about it, right? The secret weapon for agencies like would that they all like, like don't tell each other about, um, but now those workloads have become mature.
Right. People know they need great content. People know they have to be thinking about it. So I'd say the biggest business. When is through the VIT, through the maturity of this market, the content strategy, content intelligence and content optimization market. We've been there since the first, we were the first in this market doing it the right way.
And now we're the most mature ward offering things for the individual solo preneur, all the way up to the biggest three letter words, three letter acronyms that you all know, and that knee is success because we've shown that these workflows get it done for the best in the best. And also the person who is their first day.
Spencer: [00:13:43] Yeah. So just to give a very, I mean, we've touched, you've touched on a lot of points, what market muse does, but maybe let's give a succinct, like two minute here's what market muse does and how it helps you. And if you want to use an example, you know, And for listeners, I'm helping to make it concrete for them.
You know, if you were to take my site, you know, like I have a, a niche site called own the yard.com. That's been my niche, public, uh, project. Oh, where are you? Okay.
Jeff Coyle: [00:14:13] Very good.
Spencer: [00:14:18] So you know what I'm talking about, right. So it's a niche site that I've built and kind of shared what I've done. Um, let's say I want it to increase the SEO traffic. I've got lots of content already there. Um, but I want to make it do better. Uh, how do I use market muse? Make it get more SEO traffic.
Jeff Coyle: [00:14:35] Absolutely. So Mark I'm use is the elevator pitch on marker. Muse is it's a content intelligence platform that sets the standard for content quality. Okay. That's the key. Okay. It tells the story about what it means to be an expert in, gosh, I hope I, to the right site in outdoor games, one might play in a tailgate or in a beer garden or in something like that.
So it was the right side. Yeah. So basically it's saying it tells you at the site level or the strategic level, where are you strong? Where are you? Weak. Where do you have gaps? Where are there opportunities? Where should you lean into? You've gotten momentum where if you don't desire it, where do you have gaps?
Where do you have blind spots at the site level or the network load? Um, so we give insights as to how hard it's going to be for you to perform for a topic and how much investment is needed in content creation or updates, how much effort you're going to need to put in to make it what happened to, to guide the continent planning dynamics that.
Our most common. So the most common content planning dynamics, if you imagine a Foursquare quick wins, what do I do today is going to have the biggest impact create, but also business schools. I really think the talk is going to be big, um, in, on my site. And how do I lower. The time, right? Hold on. I'm saying that.
Right. So, uh, which is a boxy like game played in France with metal balls in case anyone doesn't know. Um, so the, um, you might say, I want to own them. What content do I need to create? What updates do I need to make to my botchy area? Well based do I need to make, to do that, to make me more thought of a thought leader on the top?
Right. Yeah. Do I need to cover other French games as well? Do I need to cover wool? Do I need to cover. Oh, man, I'm going to drop it. There's a couple other ones off the top of my head. Sorry. Yeah, we're good. Yeah. So we get it. And then what if there's competitive press? So bace sets our us, gosh, just got bought by red ventures.
They're coming at us, right? I'm going to start writing like 600 articles a day. Um, what do I do to respond to that? Right. Which is very common in niche sites. I write 80 articles and a few of them get 90% of my crap. I'm scared crapless about that. I don't really know what to do. I don't know why weren't successful.
I'm scared to touch them. That happens to so many people. Right. And so what do I do, I like to think about ethical that the harm you've got this, you've got this hand with no harm. How do I support the hand? That's floating in space, generating 80% of my revenue. Uh, how do I surround that with content clusters?
Uh, to win. And then the last thing is maybe you're just an editorial shop, right? Or you're a marketing services where you've got an editorial calendar stuff. You've got to row orders. You've got to take, how do we put our best foot forward on those efforts? So quick wins, business goals, risks, and, um, you know, org.
Got it do its editorial calendars that makes up 95% of why people write or why people up content. We guide any one of those things. There's other unique stuff. Local optimization, ABM, um, migration plans. So what content do we need to create an update as to get the best bang for our buck or for risk reduction around migration?
We inform all of those, but that those are cases. Um, and, and so that's what Mark muse is providing at the site operator level. And then we also deliver content briefs at scale for those writers. Creating a single source of truth for your writers. So they know whether they're SEO champions or not. They know if they deliver the content that meets those specs in the best chance to be successful.
Uh, and we deliver it. We have teams that get a thousand briefs a month, you know, or more, uh, and then we have a suite of applications that do, or those are for your do it yourself. You know, that's the, that's the person who just wants to figure out how to update this page. Right or do competitive research on that, or what are the best questions I can answer about this topic?
So we've got these, do it yourself or workflows for the SEO expert. We've also got more of that high level, strategic thinking, business intelligence, content intelligence, uh, concepts. So no matter where you're at. We're filling in gaps in your content.
Spencer: [00:19:17] Right. And so, um, for, for people listening, I mean, it, it, it does a ton, it's a super smart tool.
And we're going to talk about some
how smart it is here in just a second,
but just to drive home that point of, you know, for the, do it yourself, or, you know, or somebody that's building a niche site, like it gives you very concrete. You know, what words and phrases should you be using to update your content?
What new new topics should you be targeting? How long should those articles be? You know, it gives you very actionable. Like you use the tool and it essentially tells you what you should be writing your article about what headings that should have, what, you know, everything that you would need to really provide an in-depth piece of content.
Jeff Coyle: [00:20:00] Yeah. I mean, I w some slogans that we kicked out. Are let your writers right. Let your experts be experts. You know, so much of what SEO does is try to push square pegs into round holes with great writers, making them have to be keyword research deep or awesome subject matter of X. Making them have to use words and be keyword research people, you know, it's let them do, doesn't do the things that they're great at.
Spend more time being creative. Let's spend more time on production and make sure we know we have objective measures of quality. So if they put together a beautiful creative, so creative writing narrative, and it has great production value, but they didn't have a brief. They might have to submit it to an SEO.
Well, blank. You I'm the expert. Right? So now I have a standard source of truth. I meet those guidelines in my narrative. I'm going to hand you this draft and you're going to go. They don't have to go through that. And that's so people, we interview writers all the time that SEO at it. It's soul-sucking soul sucking.
And we're trying to think that out. Like, what if you never had to spit something back or make somebody feel bad, right. With some sort of subjective perspective. Right? Uh, so we were doing a lot of things for those types of the, the greatest part is the outcomes are that right? The wins are there, you create more confident, you're more efficient with the content you're creating when you update content and you know why?
Right. You know, we, you and I are probably the two people in this world that think the most many Kevin indig who think the most critically about internal linking and its impact. I mean, we give insights on internal, LinkedIn from a semantic relatedness perspective. So, I mean, if you're doing those three things, right, you're not writing content and getting published and hoping.
But it does well, you know, it's going to do well or at least, you know, the percentages, right?
Spencer: [00:22:11] Yeah. So let's, um, move a little bit more into artificial intelligence and what you guys are doing there. Um, you know, people that are listening to the podcast know that I've been talking about this a little bit, uh, recently.
And part of that is because some of the PR that. You know, another company has gotten this GPT three, right? Uh, you hear about this. There was an article in the guardian and it's been mentioned other places that, you know, robots are taking over, right. Robots are now writing complete articles that sound like humans and GPT three has the technology, right?
They're the greatest thing since sliced bread, uh, is kind of. What I'm hearing. And then, and then I see this article on market muse, the kind of compares what they are doing compared to GPT three. And boy, it kind of sounds like market muse might even be better. So, uh, maybe you can dive into that. Like, what is market muse doing with artificial intelligence and, and kind of, how does that compare to GPT three?
Jeff Coyle: [00:23:11] No. And you put that right? The only part is, yes, it is. But it's better for us. It's better for content marketers. Got it. It's better for strategic content people. It's better for content strategy and editorial. Um, you know, there's natural language processing. The industry has changed so dramatically in the last two years that it's it's mind numbing.
Uh, not again too much detail, but we have our own data science lab. Uh, based in Montreal for lab, um, where we're focused on innovations and that's the language processing, natural language generation. Um, and we always have been right. We've been our original technology is a branch of artificial intelligence called topic modeling.
Um, you know, in sharing machine learning to train models, to tell the story of what it means to be an expert, basically. And we built the briefs, we've automated the generation of content aligns with our content briefs. Right. Um, and so we've always sought out the white whale of natural language generation, right.
Um, but we have very strong desire to do that right. For content marketers. And to make sure that it's focused on expertise and workflows that work, it's not some magician Traer, isn't implementable. Um, the goals and the workflows are so turned into your brain. You don't even realize some of these pains.
But I really, really love when Washington post for example came out a couple of years ago with Helio graph. It was one of the first publicly known and LG platinum at the limit generation platforms. Um, and the two use cases I really connected with that made us really focus on it. And he said, um, I was at a conference in Vegas, sexually ICC, and now it's content.
Uh, and the main scientist said we used to be able to cover. And I forget the number 18% of the elections nationwide. Well, with Helio graph, we cover them all. That's good. Yeah. Right. We used to cover 8% of the Olympic games. Now we covered them. All right. And we have to, I program exceptions in, you have to program things in it, like tell you that judo gets two bronze metals.
You know what I did that day, I went and looked it up in market news and it told me that judo requires two bronze medals. And I said, Oh crap. We can build briefs already at scale. Well, why aren't we writing? And so the unique value we have is we know what it means to be an expert. We can build a brief that you can validate, you know, the article that you're asking for and we can start to build drafts.
And so marketing muse is the only model that allows you to turn against a set of guidelines. They use state. And it's so high quality, you can train it on mini set of specific data and also train it on your site to write like you. So it writes like you it's completely unique content, no possibility for plagiarism or anything like that.
And it meets the standards of the brief. It's a first draft it's still needs to be edited. But our models blow the doors off of generalist models because we're building them specific for you. And we were able to do it at scale and super lightweight. So if you imagine, and we can actually do post tuning on these things for any specific set of guidelines that you have.
So we can actually set this up to right. The next article about AI that Spencer would write and you validate that breed. So you know where you're going to get. So it's highly likely that you're going to go, Oh yeah, that's pretty good. I can spend 40 minutes tuning up this draft and make it good enough to publish.
Right. Our goal was always to get the things we always thought. We'd get the editing down to, um, you know, down below an hour and we'd be in good shape. Right. And we're roughly there with first draft, we also offer her offer an offering called final draft, which our team acts as that 40 minutes. So you can buy the first drafts.
At scale or wait a little bit longer, the final brands. Right. Um, and GBG three is being sold at this thing that, you know, AI is taking over, but it has so much limitations. It has so many limitations. It's beautiful. It's massive. It's got so much that it can do. It's it's truly innovative it, the number of parameters, it does a lot, but does it right?
Highly composed narratives that meet a set of nine lines that pass muster and can be edited neatly into a great content that you're confident in. Now it doesn't. Um, and the people who were projecting these things, I mean, famously the guardian article that was really out of eight generations pieced together and supplemented by the writer.
Okay. Did that speed? Did that speed up their journey in writing that market? Um, if it did great, that's what I care about, right. If it didn't end, it was just to be sensational. Okay. So be it. Um, but what I'm not, what I'm focused on is, is what that writes fluff. Can't would you, would you publish it? Is it truly a legitimate narrative or is it just kind of writing stuff sounds right.
Sounds reasonable. And thus passes the test. A writer could write this. Well, a writer could write this isn't good enough where your site, so that's the trick here. Um, and then that's where I'm like, guys. If what I want are NLD solution. What I want market means first drafted. This is where your audience, some of them are going to shake a little bit.
Sorry. I want the low end of the content market disappear. I want those one 72 cents the garbage article places to go away. Because that's not good for anyone. Our mission and market muse is to build high quality, quality content and comprehensive content that tells a story that you're an expert and this solution into the market.
What raises the bar on meets minimum for content and that. That isn't hype. That's something we can all get. No one wants garbage going guns, garbage bag, low quality content. So I guess my striking thing is to say, you know, you're going to have to do some faction. You're going to have to do some tweaking on content at this point on generate content.
How much do you need to do? Um, and you know, it's getting better and better. But what, if you could have an objective measure of quality and objective measure of comprehensiveness and objective measure of expertise and outline that you validated, Oh, maybe the person who knew that makes a better art that they've won.
That's what market muse is. That's why we have an insane, insane, competitive advantage on this. And so, yes. Is it better, absolutely better. Um, and you know, we've already generated hundreds of these in our output and it goes to beta next month. It's going to break the market.
Spencer: [00:30:57] That's super exciting for content marketers, obviously.
So to kind of drive this point home and I'll just. Uh, restate a little bit of what you said, you know, with GPT three, you know, it, it's kind of a good general, uh, model of artificial intelligence using natural language processing and like the example you mentioned, you know, they, they took, um, eight tries at writing an article and then they combined it, you know, they cobbled it together.
I guess, or I don't know if they use just one or if they cobbled pieces together, uh, the best pieces. I don't know.
Jeff Coyle: [00:31:31] No, they use eight and pick them together. What's your guess what? I know that story. That's, that's a, that's a fine work. We did it early on too, right? Yeah.
Spencer: [00:31:39] Yeah. Um, and so, but where market muse, um, steps in is that, like you said, it provides that sort of eject objective metric of what is quality?
What, you know, what is it meeting, you know, when, um, What, what guidelines are you following and et cetera, as you mentioned, um, So with first draft again, to have a concrete example here, let's go back to botchee balls. Right? If, if I, if I tell first draft, you know, if I have got my keyword or my content topic that I want to target, I plug that into market muse.
Is it going to give me an entire article, um, that that's ready to use? Like what tweaking is needed with
Jeff Coyle: [00:32:21] the here's here's how it works. Explicitly I am in marketing. I'm let's say I'm in marketing museum inventory. I see a low-hanging fruit opportunity. You know, what is Pitocin? We just talked about it, right?
Let's just, or I'm. Okay. I want that. I order a content brief on that, depending on the package on men, I'm either in self-served generation or done for you brief generation. If it's done for you, you're going to get a brief from our customer success team. If you have to generate yourself, you go in, it gives you the brief walk through how you build a brief.
You define a few things that then generates it for you. Got it. You take the brief is an outline. It also says questions that need to be answered topics that need to be included. Um, the general structure of the article. You. Validate or invalidate, you can add, remove, you validate the length of the article that you, we recommend and say, yeah, that's what I want to do.
I then submit that brief to first draft. And today in a few days, I get my first breath in a Google doc in the future, that experience in the next few weeks is going to be a user user interface. Very similar to market muse, optimize where that drafts appears inside my workbook. And I can tweak it right in there and see exactly what topics are competitive advantages, which ones are supporting my quality and comprehensiveness.
So you've used that you use optimize and compete before, so that draft pops in your. You pop it in there and you're gonna be able to do some other cool stuff, which I have teased a little bit, but you'll be able to pull in and pull out sections. Um, if you want. And basically I, now I tweak it and it's ready to go and it will require.
Editing and it is called market muse first trapper. And, uh, um, and, and so it does, however, we are putting this in place so that you might get inspired in some things that it covers. You might want to add the areas where you weren't a major headache. You might want to add a two paragraphs. You may want to add some imagery.
Links in a different way, um, using other solutions or just out of your own brain. Um, but your content that we provide will hit market muses, target content score. Uh, it will directly connect to the strategy that we recommended. It will, um, The potentially much longer form than you would probably buy, because it might be too expensive for you or not, but you can be assured it is susceptible to plagiarism, repetition, or degradation other language models, degrade, or they're based on templates.
I'm not saying any of those outlets that you can go research template based and MLG. Absolutely no templates. We're not saying. If you go to Atlanta, you are 1.4 miles from the aquarium. You are also 4.2 miles from the airport and then call him that way. Um, but it's template based. Can we do that? Hey, are we coming out with solutions that are going to expand this and make it like a combo of those types of things?
For sure. Sure. That's that's in the development pipeline. Um, but what you can be confident in what you can't with DB Q3 is giving you three suffers from degradation. Repetition is not checked for plagiarism. It's not optimized. It has very shallow topic coverage by default, it's very difficult to train on small corporate or Corpus, uh, like your, your site to write like, um, he requires programming skills.
It's basically, you know, an APR. Um, and it's a general purpose language model, you know, I'd say we're a solution, right? It's an APN. So. It can do a lot. It's amazing. I mean, it is truly one of the most innovative thing that anyone's ever done, not just bluntly signing. Um, we've been thinking about this for four years.
We knew the workflow we wanted to build. We have it's all our own assignments. It's not thus using someone else's API. Right. I always joke. I always laugh. When it's SAS providers, are you excited about using other people they'd be out? Cause I was like the core of the business. Like I'm proud of you. You put a UX on someone else's data.
No, this is marketing is data and it is. That's all right. Are you going to, no, one's used to it. This is what I'll find if your, your, your audience, right?
Spencer: [00:37:20] Yeah. You're not you're
Jeff Coyle: [00:37:23] right. It's so new that when you read it, you think you were a goal is to be the judge of whether it's good or bad. All right, so be ready for this, right?
This was how people felt about SEO reports five or six years ago. You got it. And you're like, I don't like this keyword list. You remember those keywords, this doesn't make sense. And you questioned it. And then solutions like market views came out and you get topically semantic, relatedness. And you're like, yes, every one of these topics make sense for me.
You're going to go through the same maturity curve with this workbook, you're going to receive this and you're going to go, doesn't seem, doesn't seem perfect. Or, but it's all part of the game. Like you're, you're still not used to having generated content up here, but when we do the Pepsi challenge, you know, uh, I'm aging myself on this.
When we do the Pepsi gallons and you put the generations next to real content. Or a tweet 30 minute edited generations next to content on ones. And you ask people we're doing 50 fifties.
Spencer: [00:38:36] Wow.
Jeff Coyle: [00:38:37] And when, yeah, it's 50 on 10. They get, there's a cool one on our site. If you go to market news and look at a market muse, a first draft.
Versus GPT three. And then there's another about comparing natural language generation models that covers GBTQ and everything. It actually shows you can actually test whether which one you can, you guess, which one that says, we actually wrote an editorial editorial piece, um, generated one. And then we, with our solution, you can guess which one do you think is real or not real?
Um, and we're gonna, we're gonna turn that into something to set. See, can people pass the muster, but the goal of it though, is it's master. That's not what this is for. It's not so that you can judge it and say whether you like it or not. It's so accelerate your content workflow. You might be able to get more done.
You might be able to turn it into something great. With only an hour. It may take you three weeks to do it because I want you to be the Olympic report. I, you know, you need to write 80 articles on bace, but that's boring and expensive and you're not going to work. But what if you wrote one and it's quarterly and you got 79.
Drag, you could just tweak, tweak, tweak, tweak, tweak, tweak, tweak. Well in 80 hours you just did the work. Then you were never going to do it's working locally. We're never going to do the Washington post was never going to write articles about every weight class in judo. And the result of the Olympics. No, they share it.
They know people listening to, you know, reading them, I think, are going to appreciate that they know who won the two bronze medals in the 76 kilo weight class. Right. They weren't going to write it. So with Mark, NewsCred scrap, that's the stuff, you know, you need to write, but you're not going to get to start there.
Instead of does it read well, you know, it's just, you can change the narrative of why you're doing focus on content quality and build your pillar piece yourself and go have, you know, the next 10 pieces. Drafted now, maybe you go in and maybe it takes you 20 hours to make those better, but where you actually going to do that, where you actually going to do that work, I'm going to challenge and say most of the time, especially when you're a niche builder, especially when you're a portfolio builder and you got a lot to do.
Um, you're not actually going to execute on that content that you want to execute on. I have files and sites. Where I wanted to write, you know, 80 articles in 2020, and like I have four. Right. And I know exactly the cause I have market news on them. I know exactly the 80 articles I need to write. I'm just like, not, it's just, you know, content operations this time.
And what, if you can hand someone a brief. And a draft and there are right. Imagine how much easier nasty that is. You know, it's gonna cost you more, uh, perceived, however, you may get more done and be able to put more points on the board because you may feel like you can get good content or sense of work.
So, first of all,
Spencer: [00:42:05] super exciting the developments that are going on. Right. Uh, I, I love it. I love following the trend, you know, as I've talked about, on the podcast a little bit, but maybe for listeners, it's a little bit scary too, right? Like, um, I'm just thinking about the ma you know, maybe there's people that can't take advantage of this technology.
Right. They're they're just getting started out. It's just them, they're literally a blogger, right? Like, Are, are they going to get left behind, right? Or is this AI, you know, assisted, um, content can kind of leave them in the dust?
Jeff Coyle: [00:42:40] No, I don't think so. I think it's an amplifier. Um, and it's one of the other reasons why market muse is going to continue to.
Push for lower priced offerings. Historically, we've been very much focused on mid-market small enterprise and price. Um, however, in the end of last year, we launched a $500 a month offering called market media pro. Um, and in the next three weeks, uh, spoiler alert, we are launching two more offerings. At much, much more significantly lower price points.
Awesome. So we will have a two digit per month offering for the first time and wow. Current can use lands. Um, can you tell us
Spencer: [00:43:27] what's going to be involved with that lower implant?
Jeff Coyle: [00:43:30] Yeah, absolutely. Um, so market muse optimized, which is our research. Uh, competition and then optimize workflows. Uh, we're just going to be available for a low price point.
I don't want to, I don't want to sell it explicitly, but there are going to be, do it yourself. Use cases that we talked about. That's for the person you're talking about. I'm just getting started. I know I need great content. I'm only publishing 10 articles or less a month. I don't have a massive budget.
I've got opera. So I've got SEMrush. I do know I need more. This is for them. I've got a slightly larger team. I'm putting out a few more articles. They do need that strategic component. Um, but I'm not a, you know, huge business. Well then there's going to be another offering for that. And then I, and I've got a two person team.
I need briefs. Um, you know, I'm working at a small startup. Uh, I've got portfolio of sites. That's when you're going to start getting into, uh, backend to our larger offerings. Um, and so if you were working at a, you know, a B2B tech company with 50 employees, you know, not a fit for the smaller offering, unless you just want to let you want it to use it on maybe your side.
Your side site and safe work and then sell it internally. Right, right. Totally cool with that. But yeah, that's all happening. Um, but yeah. Are you going to be left behind? No. The only person getting left behind are people creating a really bad and I'm, I'm ultra confident in that. And here's why that's probably getting me in trouble.
But, um, you know, you listen to this spark, what these content. Networks how they're evolving, right? Oh, look at all the networks, the publicly, you know, the easily accessible networks and go find much there, how much effort is going, but they're going into the super, super low end, low quality content. They're not, they're all focused on high quality.
They're all focused on managed services. They're all focused on content workflows and operations because that's the stuff. Content market is maturing. That's the stuff that are the real pain points. Getting mass volumes of low quality content produced. It's just not a thing anymore, right? It's not a thing.
Yep. That's where that's the people getting left behind, not the person who wants to create their first niche site to be an Amazon, not right. That's you're the person who can kill the market. You can, you can beat up a slow dinosaur in your space. With solutions like this, um, with competitive analysis opportunity where you say, Oh, wow, this stroller website, you know, this personal stroller website, hasn't published an article in six months.
I see an opportunity here, Mark community is telling me I need to write 130 articles. So how am I going to do that this year? Um, But if I had, you know, briefs for that, and then you can justify the return on investment, how much traffic is that site? Um, yeah, I can spend $20,000 this year on flats and let's do it the right way.
Yep. No, that's what we empower that workflow for someone who you described.
Spencer: [00:46:59] and i think
super interesting, just looking at the trends, like, even since I've been involved in SEO, you've been involved much longer than I have, but going from a world of like, what's this Google thing and how can we essentially game Google?
Like let's buy an exact match domain
and throw up some
articles and see what happens. Right. Like, that's kind of the old days too. That's really gone, right. It like, I, I love that we're now focusing on truly quality content and market muse, like you've said, as in the job of just increasing that quality and just hopefully getting rid of sort of all the spammy, I mean, that's what Google is trying to do anyway.
So if you don't get on that bandwagon, like you will be left behind.
Jeff Coyle: [00:47:41] I love that everybody always points to the exceptions. Right? I was saying content is King, ah, look at these and they'll point to they, you know, multi-billion dollar corporation, you know, newsflash folks, enterprise SEO plays their own game.
Every large, every top 50 enterprise site is black hat. All right. I have another podcast
Spencer: [00:48:06] maybe so,
Jeff Coyle: [00:48:08] um, and they play their own game. Don't set your watch to what, you know, the person that delivered. There's lots of stuff that your house does. Right. Um, and you can fill in the blank. I'm not saying he does.
People are, um, you might order a lot of stuff from, uh, you know, from one company and not enough. Um, but the don't set your watch on that. Let's just, you're watching the biggest publisher in the world. They plan different game. Different game. And like you mentioned, it's, you can't do the things they do.
You're not, you're not able to, it's just it. And so, you know, focus on what you can control and the quality you can control. You can guarantee that every article you write is equal to, or better than all your competitors, every time from the standpoint of quality and comprehensive needs. And I'll tell you what, if you do that and you also create compelling narratives, like creative, compelling narratives, you can't be beaten.
You might get beaten by one of these big shops that, you know, Worked with market views to come to that punchline. Right. Um, but the, that that's, that's so cool. You know, it's like, that's just part of this game and you're playing the gaming of the system is not gaming. The system it's that you are in and never ending game of writing, amazing content.
That is a joy for your readers. You're in that never a new game. You're not gaming. Google. You know, if you're still gaming, Google, I mean, you're in trouble. Right. And it really is one of those, it's one of those lack of goals. And the time is your, your, your time is ticking. And then, you know, that goes, whether you're trying to gain your mind arbitrage, you're trying to gain them on pay.
You're trying to gain them on news, you know? Good luck, right?
Spencer: [00:50:03] Yeah, a hundred percent. So, uh, Jeff, I've got just two final questions here and I know this is a big question, but you know, give us a, a brief answer here, you know, just thinking about the future of SEO, you know, where is it going? You know, are we really in an industry that is going to be around for a long time?
Um, yes, yo is, is really a relatively young industry. Um, and so if I look 20 years down the road, like, are we going to look back and go like, Who was doing SEO, like,
Jeff Coyle: [00:50:38] you know, well, it's, it's out of the question. So I've been 99 is the first time I optimized the website, right. Um, into 2040, what will it look like?
Um, I can't go 20 years ahead, but I can go 10 years and I'll give you. Okay. I feel very strongly, um, that. We will have a great consolidation of various economies. Um, we're already starting to see it happen in need. Um, um, we're starting to see the deep allude, the, the, the, the breakdown of corporate PBNs, basically.
Where these businesses are buying businesses or buying businesses are buying businesses and they're turning into juggernauts that can loan great percentages of real estate in the search results. Um, I think that's going to go to a breaking point in four to five years. Uh, that's going to be very difficult for the search engines to overcome.
Hmm. Um, I think that's gonna, and out of that change will happen. Um, there are search results where in 2005, when, um, Google changed some things that you can go, there's probably Oh, five Oh seven. I'm not sure it changed some things where you can't get, um, multiple sites from the same domains or sub domains alter hosts.
They can't have multiple listings because there would be search results. So, uh, you know, You're sort of spoiled by the way, the result used to be able to get all 100 results from the same domain, different sub domains. I mean,
Spencer: [00:52:30] while
Jeff Coyle: [00:52:32] that's the thing being used at, or MSN used to have hate inclusion in their organic results.
Absolutely true story. Uh, and through their, you know, to me feeds. Um, and so that's going to happen because you're going to have. Science all owned by the same conglomerates with all the results on sponsor on search results, pages and strategic acquisitions of high authority sites are, Oh, that shit's been silent for four years.
Right. Um, and. Four years at aggressively, it's going to continue and they're going to have to change something. Um, and what is that? I don't. Um, but I do also see the other current is, um, uh, they, the quality rater guidelines, um, the, if you don't know what that is, look at Google's quality rating guidelines.
Um, the way that they train their quality. Standards. Um, isn't heavily feedback based. Um, there are some components, um, the way I can get into how that works, but never on the record. Um, but how Google works for those types of things that we'll have to change too. Um, because the world's becoming more self-aware of their be, you're becoming more of a soul.
I feel the world is becoming a better place and it's slow. Sometimes it sucks. Sometimes you go down, it goes up some, you know, depending on who you are, how you feel. But I think over time, the next generation of people expect greater things from directories. And from search engines. And if you think about it, that's what Google's doing, right.
You know, they're starting to give us more and more. They're trying to get to the end of your search journey as quickly as possible bad. Stuff's going to happen by then giving you the end of the journey you didn't want. And commercialized and we're already starting to see that happen. So I think that getting us to the end of our journey in a commercialized way is going to be at loggerheads with getting us to the end of our journey from organic at the same time that there's consolidation and real estate ownership.
And those two things happen there will be a big change in SEO.
Spencer: [00:55:27] Super interesting. So something for people to look out for it probably, I mean, the trend is already happening that you mentioned of, um, all these acquisitions, you know, kind of conglomerate or conglomerates happening. So for my audience, that can be a great thing.
Right? You've built an authority site. You can sell to the top bidder. There's, there's some big money of, of people coming in to buy up search results, essentially. Right. Hmm. So, um, so that's a good thing,
Jeff Coyle: [00:55:52] but, uh, number six is worth a whole lot more. Now, if one in one, two, three, and four are owned by the same conglomerate.
So that's critically about them.
Spencer: [00:56:01] That's interesting.
Jeff Coyle: [00:56:02] Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Spencer: [00:56:04] Interesting. So, but the th the trends of SEO, it's an ever-changing, you know, landscape as always, it's hard to predict where it's going to go, but market muse is well positioned to do some really exciting things. Some of which you've shared with us here, um, already.
Um, my final question. Um, did you have a thought? Sorry. Okay.
Jeff Coyle: [00:56:27] I haven't thought about them a long time,
Spencer: [00:56:28] but it's so final, final question here. Are you reading any good books right now? And if you're not at the moment, what's a, what's a good sort of business book or content marketing book, or, um, other book that maybe you can share with the niche pursuits listeners here,
Jeff Coyle: [00:56:48] I'm reading a book called half the Sams.
Spencer: [00:56:52] the sands
Jeff Coyle: [00:56:53] at the things. And it's a book about the sands casino, um, Vegas, and how it shaped that industry or shaped that world. Um, and it's by David sports. And that's really, it's really cool. He's written some amazing books that he's like a historian of the gaming industry. Um, so he's written a, you know, a couple of books that relate to that, and I just think he's a great writer.
Um, so that's one that I'll, if you're having any interest in that he wrote a book about Jay Sarno as well, which was, if you know, that is this, it's a really interesting story. Um, and. Uh, the book I always keep on me, which is kinda weird, uh, is, um, uh, a, a book by and I called outside in marketing by James Mathewson.
He worked at IBM for years is a good friend of mine. He recently passed. So want to shut down.
Spencer: [00:58:02] Outside in. I haven't read that one. So I'll have to, uh, check that out as
Jeff Coyle: [00:58:06] well. Yeah. He was the in-house lead at IBM for a very long time and also owned the content strategy practice at, at a major college group.
Spencer: [00:58:17] All right. So two good book recommendations. I'll have to check out and listeners of course, as well can check out. So, but Jeff, thank you for coming on the show. It's been great catching up. And, um, you know, hearing about market muse and what the latest and greatest is there. Um, any other place that you'd like to send people besides just market muse.com,
Jeff Coyle: [00:58:37] um, go to market muse.com.
Also, if you're in interested in any of these new offerings, you can shoot me an [email protected] Um, they are all fired in October, um, but if you want to get on them personally, that swimming up.
Spencer: [00:58:52] Perfect. That sounds good. By the time this episode comes out, it, depending on the timing, maybe they'll there'll be available.
We'll see. So, um, exciting stuff, Jeff, appreciate you coming on and talking about artificial intelligence, market, muse, content marketing and everything. So thanks again. Appreciate it.
Jeff Coyle: [00:59:10] Thanks man.